Out of Order Golf Scene? - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by queenbeesteph

I have thought this for awhile now... they lead us to believe that everything is running in linear time, but I don't think that time is exactly running linear on the show.

I agree. Plus I don't think the way the producers play with linear time has to follow the same exact formula in every episode. I mean, that would be creating another pattern, pretty much as predictable as linear temporality itself, right? I'm with queenbeesteph on this.

I don't know if any of you read J. Wood's blog from Powell's books website, but he had an interesting discovery of just that.

From his blog on this episode: "Jump ahead to the end of the episode, when Sayid is having his gunshot wound treated by Ben. We find that Sayid is being blackmailed by Ben to hunt down a list of people; if Sayid doesn't play along, his friends (the rest of the Oceanic Six?) will come to some bad end: “Do you want to protect your friends or not, Sayid?” The people Sayid is hunting are possibly members of the Maxwell Group, since Sayid's mark, Elsa, is wearing the same bracelet as Naomi. After the incident when Elsa shoots Sayid and contacts her boss (getting two in the chest in return), Sayid tells Ben that the people on the list will now know who he is; Ben is just fine with that. Indeed, Avellino's flash of recognition on the golf course suggests this is the case, and if so, it also suggests that the episode on the golf course took place after the rest of the flashes in the episode; the narrative time of the episode twists back on itself, giving “The Economist” a kind of circular feel. Avellino may even have been Elsa's boss. But there's more: Daniel Faraday conducts an experiment where he has Regina on the freighter fire a rocket with a clock in it onto the island. The rocket doesn't land when it should. When Faraday opens the rocket and checks the clock against his clocks on the island, he finds that the island is about 31 minutes behind time on the freighter. That's a significant 31 minutes; if you start at the very beginning of the episode and skip ahead 31 minutes (sans commercials), you'll be at the beginning of the pivotal scene where Sayid and Elsa are in bed. If you take the scene where Sayid tells Elsa he's in Germany to kill her boss and go back 31 minutes, you're at the beginning of the golf course scene where he shoots Avellino. This may be just a simple coincidence and an intriguing play on spacetime, but coincidence may be too simple an explanation (and if it's just a coincidence, it's damn cool and damn convenient)."

Pretty interesting, no?

I personally think the guy would've been WAY more panicked if he knew Sayid was going to kill him, he would've at least missed his shot and lost the bet. He looked a little confused, a little scared, wary...like he was trying to absorb the info and make sense of it. 'here I am, golfing in the Seychelles, I'm involved in covering up the crash (or whatever he's guilty of) and here is one of the oceanic six...this can't be good' But if he knew Sayid was killing them... as soon as he said 'I am Sayid Jarrah' the guy would have KNOWN for certain he was about to take a bullet. The 31 minute thing is interesting but based on the guy's reaction I think it happened before the Berlin incident. He says to Ben 'Now they will know..." Mr. Aveleno (I thought he called him Mr. Avion) did not know yet.

Personally, Lost in Hazzard, I agree with you. The reaction and then nailing the golf shot really don't correspond to Avellino's having prior knowledge of Sayid. It is more as you describe: Crap, I'm involved with these people or these events in some way, and this is a weird coincidence that I'm meeting up with this guy. Something weird is going on and I cannot explain it.

I really thought that the 31 minute thing that J. Wood mentioned was pretty interesting though. However, like you, I'm not convinced that the golf scene came after the Ben & Sayid covert ops reveal scene.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeefJello

I don't know if any of you read J. Wood's blog from Powell's books website, but he had an interesting discovery of just that.

From his blog on this episode: "Jump ahead to the end of the episode, when Sayid is having his gunshot wound treated by Ben. We find that Sayid is being blackmailed by Ben to hunt down a list of people; if Sayid doesn't play along, his friends (the rest of the Oceanic Six?) will come to some bad end: “Do you want to protect your friends or not, Sayid?” The people Sayid is hunting are possibly members of the Maxwell Group, since Sayid's mark, Elsa, is wearing the same bracelet as Naomi. After the incident when Elsa shoots Sayid and contacts her boss (getting two in the chest in return), Sayid tells Ben that the people on the list will now know who he is; Ben is just fine with that. Indeed, Avellino's flash of recognition on the golf course suggests this is the case, and if so, it also suggests that the episode on the golf course took place after the rest of the flashes in the episode; the narrative time of the episode twists back on itself, giving “The Economist” a kind of circular feel. Avellino may even have been Elsa's boss. But there's more: Daniel Faraday conducts an experiment where he has Regina on the freighter fire a rocket with a clock in it onto the island. The rocket doesn't land when it should. When Faraday opens the rocket and checks the clock against his clocks on the island, he finds that the island is about 31 minutes behind time on the freighter. That's a significant 31 minutes; if you start at the very beginning of the episode and skip ahead 31 minutes (sans commercials), you'll be at the beginning of the pivotal scene where Sayid and Elsa are in bed. If you take the scene where Sayid tells Elsa he's in Germany to kill her boss and go back 31 minutes, you're at the beginning of the golf course scene where he shoots Avellino. This may be just a simple coincidence and an intriguing play on spacetime, but coincidence may be too simple an explanation (and if it's just a coincidence, it's damn cool and damn convenient)."

Pretty interesting, no?

Yes, I read that and I thought it was cool.

I don't think they necessarily show us these flash forwards/backwards in real time or succession but it probably doesn't matter to the story. There seems to be a whole network of people out there that wish to control the Oceanic 6. By killing the man at the golf course, we find that he was obviously a threat to Sayid but still don't know if he is the specific man Ben spoke of or if he was just another name on a long list.

I don't know if they want to control the oceanic 6 or if they want to do them harm or something... My thoughts are that they want info from them. Like Abbadon asking Hurley if there are still people alive on the island or whatever.

I'm certain that the golf scene happens after the scenes with Elsa, Therefore Avalino is (was) Elsa's boss, Sayid got the info from the pager and flew out to the seychelles to assasinate him.
Avalino is high up in Hanso and Ben is trying to destroy all things Hanso?Dharma.

BeefJello, GREAT post.

ok but here's the thing...

if sayid killed avellino AFTER he had the altercation with Elsa and met with Ben, how the HECK did he manage those swings after getting shot in the shoulder?

would have needed quite a bit of time to heal before he could swing like that...

the golf club, i mean