ben, locke and the island's gifts

10:21 AM

It was about time for a proper Benjamin Linus episode- and this one did deliver the goods.

One of the things that got emphasized (again) was Ben's distinctive dislike for being called a 'liar'- this might not seem all too surprising given that he is a manipulator, and a player doesn't want to get caught in his own game...but there's an asymmetrical relation between manipulation and lying. Though Ben did lie more than a bunch of times, I can't help notice that he seems to prefer clouding things up and playing with people's perspectives, over simply lying to them. An example of that would be his "I was born on this island" thing. Perhaps not biologically so, but was not Benjamin Linus as we know him, born on the island- after killing his father and help Hostiles destroy Dharma community? Like Ben said, it isn't altogether true that he was born there..but is it a lie, really?

I think Ben did a very daring thing on his part when he asked Locke in the previous episode to kill his own father. In a way he presented Locke the opportunity, much like giving him a gift that bounds the giver and the taker with common obligation: in a way, Ben passed the island's gift to Locke (which, has caused much trouble to Ben himself and apparently will continue to do so) and Locke had to but accept and return the gift (when he lacked the will and motivation, Alpert helped him 'clear his mind'). Much like it changed Ben's life tremendously (from being a guilt-ridden orphan to a much stronger leader type), getting rid of his father will change Locke's, but not without the distress it would cause on Ben's authority. Timing and content of Alpert's talk to little Ben and Locke in the previous episode is peculiarly similar as well, making one think that a 'who rules?' kind of confrontation between Locke and Ben is inevitable and will take the rest of Others' involvement to some degree.

I wonder what everyone makes of the Ben-Richard- Locke thing?

It's funny too that Ben kind of got conned and lied to by Locke. Ben killed his own father, pretty dramatically, yet Locke HAD his father killed by sawyer, which I think was the proper person to kill cooper anyway.
I have this feeling that the Othes had conversations with Jacob previously, but through their own apparitions, and when Ben came along and seemed to communicate clearly with Jacob, the others sort of just followed Ben, like a saviour. Yet now I think the Others are seeing that Ben may be making changes to Jacob's original plans, and they do really want a change.. I'm just not sure. Good post, there is defiantely a dynamic between Richard and Ben that w do not understand, since Richard seems to have been the previous leader.

You know its interesting but Locke and Ben seem to have a lot in common which creates an interesting yin/yang idea. Locke and Ben both want to be "special" and to gain power and control. Locke wanted to free himself from his father and he constantly tried to show his importance to the island over anyone else. I think we see this with Ben as well but in a darker way. I mean Ben sacrificied the entire Dharma initiative and Locke sacrificed Boone. Yes i think we have more sympathy toward Locke, but I see a lot of similarities going on, which creates an intense struggle for power and recognition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CableRunner

It's funny too that Ben kind of got conned and lied to by Locke.

I agree. With a mentor like Richard, I think it's only a matter of time we see more of that happening

Hey Baby-Yo

Yin-yang theories I read on the forum all sound interesting. Locke and Walt's game talk by the beach is bound to come up here and there, considering not a single dialogue or scene goes wasted with Lost

I agree with you that a binary will eventually be set up between Locke and Ben in the eyes of the Others, and a 'moral judgement' of good/bad often turns valuable when power shifts are of concern.

Nevertheless, I find the whole narrative of Lost working against the universality of categorical moral judgements, especially that of good/bad, or good/evil. For instance, interesting that a torturer is one of (almost) every viewer's fav characters by now- in fact, in a recent poll on the forum, many of us considered Sayyid as totally trust-worthy in a life & death situation. Why? I think that's partly because we've been initiated with the depths of his character and given the circumstances of surviving on the island, categorical moral judgements proved themselves to be useless and superficial. Even before he showed remorse for his former deeds and even though not all the Losties know his past and his regrets about it, Sayyid never ceased gaining trust.. and popularity

Maybe the subtleties of the original yin-yang idea could be helpful here- that each side embraces a part of its opposite, and the opposition is not necessarily one of good/bad, good/evil.. Rather an on-going dialectical strife of opposing forces, creation and destruction, war and peace, change and stillness.. all those changes that Nature expresses without ever breaking the circle (the yin-yang sign), all in all, totally harmony, things working out themselves...sort of thing, if this makes any sense..

I kind of think that yin-yang idea is also interesting for Ben and Richard's relation.

Yes I agree with you flaneuse, except i'm not sure yet which side Richard is on. Its hard to get a read on him like it is also hard to get a good read on Juliet.

Flaneuse, from now on I am going to PM you with my posts, so you can read them and fix them with your excellent and eloquent use of the english language. I'm not kidding, not only do you have great ideas and insights, your wording of them is perfect.

I definately agree about the yin-yang, embracing the opposite.. and the funny part is, every character seems to have this dynamic built into their own story in some way or another. Jack drinks, yet hated his father drinking. Sawyer cons, though a con killed his family, and more i can't think f now..

What if Ben's parents were on the "Farm" Lock worked at for a while? I heard Tom was spotted there also, and Lock should have recognized him.??

well the thing that really got my attention is the fact that when Ben was young he saw his mom and Richard seen this but over time i think that Ben might have taken the island for granted and lost his gift. and now locke has come along who was in a wheel chair even Ben has agreed that locke has a connection with the island and so now that locke has this gift i think that the others see this and thats why no one stopped locke from beating up that one eyed dude any thoughts?

CableRunner, thank you for your nice words.. (enter here the blush-smiley that I couldn't find on the list) Actually, English is not my mother tongue so I might as well PM you with my posts for the fixing my writing needs ocassionally